Kevin and I have been friends since we both wrote for Inc, and before I appeared on his podcast, which always opens a conversation. It's two guys talking about leadership and love with examples of hardball football and basketball coaching and the like. We talk about leadership from the vantage point of his new book, Great Leaders Have No Rules: Contrarian Leadership Principles to Transform Your Team and Business, which came out yesterday. I wrote a blurb for his book, which gives an idea of our conversation: If you want to lead so people love working with you, not just manage so they comply, and the usual instruction isn't helping, you probably need some shaking up. Kevin Kruse wrote his book to provoke you into changing and growing. It's filled with stories, research, and personal experiences that will make you think and point to how to change and grow. He specifies how each lesson applies, to work, home, family, military, and more, but most of all yourself, even when no one is looking. He also takes the environmental challenge seriously and shares views I hear a lot. Water bottles are a challenge for him so this episode features a recognized, experienced leader and teacher of leaders struggling with challenges everyone else does. My prediction: he'll face challenges he didn't expect, he'll feel like giving up, he won't give up, and he'll learn more than he expected. Specifically what he'll learn I can't say, but we listeners will hear how someone who writes about how to handle challenges handles challenges.