You will not forget this conversation. Dov brings his full self emotionally, especially starting about 20 minutes from the start I guarantee that you’ll hear a way that you want to be. And Dov shares stories from his life so you can hear he was not always this open. And you’ll hear how you can become that way. This conversation for me marked a before and after in how I have these conversations in these recordings. He left me speechless several times. You’ll hear how to bring your full self, your soul to everything that you do. He also took up one of the more challenging personal challenges that I’ve heard and you’ll hear how it connects very deeply to his life. So let’s listen to Dov.
Dov: Hey, Josh.
Joshua: Hey there. How are you doing?
Dov: Iâ€™m good, mate. How are you doing?
Joshua: I’m great. So either way calling I think would have worked. And as I set this up, actually every single conversation I’ve had on Skype since our recording I think, â€œOh, they’re looking at my notesâ€ which I’m sure you say to everyone.
Dov: Only if the cameraâ€™s ainâ€™t from where it is right now.
Joshua: This one is going to be audio only once we start recording. So I did not do that. But I have started having stuff to put you know so it could be up like this. And so I apologize for as we are now in backlit so you can’t quite see me. I guess I look like a kind of shadowy figure.
Dov: Yeah, you like you might be stopped from some bad guy movie.
Joshua: Yeah like a Stephen King likeâ€¦
Dov: Yeah, you just got to do the voice, man.
Joshua: â€œHello, I’m your father.â€
Dov: â€œI am the voice of your dark side.â€
Joshua: Oh, you are good at that.
Dov: Oh, yeah. I used to do a voice over in my 20s.
Joshua: So when I was setting this up I was thinking, â€œShould I get or not backlit?â€ And so it’s properly done because Dov knows that it matters but then I thought maybe we’ll start on audio only and now I actually go to video so I apologize to be this shadowy figure.
Dov: Itâ€™s all right, mate. Whatever works fine for you. It’s your podcast – you do whatever you want to do.
Joshua: Ok. So the recording started automatically like as soon as it started. And thereâ€™s one person that we were in the conversation and we just said let’s just go. Like I said, â€œIt’s already recordingâ€ and you said, â€œLet’s just go.â€ And then someone else I just said, â€We’ll startâ€ and I said, â€œLook, it’s recording.â€ Do you want to go on from this? Do you want to just continue?
Joshua: Actually or maybe it’s all too weird.
Dov: You say I am the voice of your dark side.
Joshua: Yeah. But you know I think an interesting idea for podcasts would be like the pre-and-post-podcast-conversation podcast. Because it oftenâ€¦ I’ve said this before. I think this is really casual conversation that happens before and then sometimes it gets really formal and awkwardly so and then afterward it gets comfortable again and I think there’s a lot of really interesting stuff that gets lost by not doing that part.
Dov: Yeah. I mean that’s why part of the reason I do my pre-chat with people is to get them really comfortable with me and my personality so that when we actually do have the conversationâ€¦ And you know that’s gotten more difficult now because people are waiting three-four months to get on the show so that familiarity is going away a little bit. But I try to spend three-four-five minutes beforehand for exactly that reason. You’re absolutely right.
You know because people get weird and that’s why I would say, â€œPlease if you come on my show, please don’t do shtick because Iâ€™ll cut you off.â€ Because it’s a conversation, that’s it. You know and you’ve got expertise â€“ letâ€™s do that. That’s great but not shtick.
Joshua: So let’s continue then. So while we’re talking I’m going to put it over so you you’re not looking out my nose. And so people who are listening this now when you do a podcast with Dov in the pre talk heâ€™ll point out that he does video and you’re going to seeâ€¦ He said to me, I’m sure you said it like that’s your thing, you say that to a lot of people right. Or is it just me?
Dov: What I say is a lot of people if they camera is low, â€œNow itâ€™s good, I can see you.â€ And some phrases â€“ [5:40], the lighting is not blurring and I’m not looking up your nose because I actually don’t need to know whether you have sinus issues.
Joshua: Ok. So for people who don’t know what’s going on this is the Leadership and the Environment podcast. Itâ€™s Joshua Spodek here with Dov Baron and obviously he and I know each other and actually not that long. It’s to me it was reading your book is what made the difference is thatâ€¦ I said this on your podcast but I’ll say this on mine that I started reading it like many people I’ve readâ€¦. I don’t think I’ve read a 100 leadership books but Iâ€™ve read a lot. And it didn’t start off with a bang. It wasn’t like metamorphosis starts off with a bang. You know Gregor Samsa walks among the monstrous vermin.
But I’m alright like I’m going to be on the guyâ€™s podcast, I better read this and like part with you’re like wow this is really this is stuff most people don’t share about themselves. This is very vulnerable and vulnerability and intimacy I consider extremely important for leadership. If you want to have a team that produces and can depend on each other and not just the stuff about yourself because itâ€™s stuff about Prime Minister Hawke from Australia and the things that you wrote about Yvonne, I’m not going to get Shuli Marad from Patagonia, led me to do tons of research on him. Most books don’t get me to change my behavior at the early stage they did and yours did, and it told me about you. And so first what got you to write that way?
Dov: That’s a really good question. I’ll tell you why it’s a great question because back in 1992 I hadn’t written any books. Well, thatâ€™s not true. Somebody had contrived a quote book of my personal quotes but Iâ€™d ainâ€™t actually written any books. And a very good friend of mine came to visit me from Australia and he said, â€œWhereâ€™s your book? And I said, â€œWhat book?â€ He goes, â€œMy point exactly. Whereâ€™s your book?â€ And Iâ€™m like, â€œI canâ€™t write a book.â€ when he goes, â€œWhy the hell no?â€ And I go, â€œI’m crap at grammar and my spelling is worse than my grammar so I canâ€™t write.â€ And he goes, â€œDo you know these mystical creatures who live underneath not bridges but guess where?â€ I said, â€œI don’t know.â€ And he goes, he says, â€œDo you know who they are?â€ and I said, â€œNo.â€ And he goes, â€œthey’re called editors.â€
And he goes, â€œYou don’t have to be any good at grammar or spelling.â€ And so I wrote this initial book and which actually was a novella. So it was not a how-to, it was a story. And I wrote this novella, it’s still out there somewhere. We actually sold very, very well. I was horribly grammatically wrong and this cover was ugly as all sent but I sold 3000 copies just walking it around in the free internet days. And people really liked the book and what thatâ€¦
Joshua: It was crap but people liked it.
Dov: It was crap.
Joshua: It wasn’t the spelling [8:10].
Dov: Yeah, grammatically it was awful, the cover was ugly but there was a wonderful story. And you know it was called The Spiritual Comedy. It was about you know a guy who had gone through a lot of struggle in his life and finding his own purpose in his life. But I wrote the book and then after that somebody said, â€œWell, you know you should write a how-to.â€ And I started and I hated it. I mean the first book I wrote in a weekend literally Friday, Saturday and Sunday, not the entire but the skeleton of it. The next one I slowed over months because I was trying to write it quote right. And I realized, and I talked to my friend, [8:45] and he said, â€œDov, do you know anybody who doesn’t like listening to you speak?â€ And I said, â€œI’m sure there are a lot of people.â€ And he goes, â€œEverybody I know loves you and you talk, and the stories and other things.â€ And I go, â€œA-haâ€. And he goes, â€œWhy don’t you just write like that?â€ And then I was like, â€œOh, I don’t know.â€
And then I saw this training on writing copywriting. And that was where writing was going and I suddenly went, â€œOh my God, that’s what I do. Copywriting is conversational writing.â€ And so I began to write in that style and my first big book was called Don’t read thisâ€¦Your ego won’t like it. It was about the ego and how the ego mind works and everybody who read that book said to me, â€œIt feels like youâ€™re in the room with me talking to me.â€ And what I realized as soon as if I donâ€™t do that with a ton of vulnerability or reveal myself, then itâ€™s talking at. And as you know itâ€™s part of my leadership philosophy is vulnerability is the most powerful thing you can have but youâ€™ve got to be willing to have the courage to do that with yourself. And so I write that way. When I think it endears people and makes them realize that I’m not on a pedestal. I’ve been on one of those things I’ve fallen a lot and I’d rather be human and present with people.
Joshua: OK, so a big thing for me in what I’m trying to do here. I mean there’s the environment part which I’ll get to in a minute. But accessibility I think a lot of people listen to people that they look up to because they want to emulate them, they want to become like them and they’re going to have but they’re not there yet and so they’re going to have inhibitions or fears or other interests and so forth. Was it easy for you? Was it always this way? I mean you said that the first book you wrote came out, that was the weekend book. The next when you felt like I’m supposed to do it a certain way or you did it that wasn’t you speaking authentically. Was it hard to get back to authentic or was it easy to return? Was it a challenge? Was it a natural for you or what? Something different?
Dov: Well, it was a challenge because in my head was how it should be versus the truth of who I am. And so the challenge I think is that the challenge is not in writing, I think it’s a challenge in why is that we guarding our head how we it should be versus who we are. I got asked to speak in India recently, I speak around the world as you know, Joshua, and that gentleman I was speaking to said, â€œOh, well we will need you to wear a tie and we will need you to take out your earrings.â€ And I said, â€œThat’s great. Then you don’t need me. I don’t wear ties at all. And I don’t take out my earrings.â€ Not because of anything but theyâ€™re just part of me. And you know if you’re hiring me you want me, not some diluted version of me. And it’s not arrogance and it’s not likeâ€¦ This is what you get. So somebody say, â€œWell, we don’t want you to talk about that.â€ Well, that’s what I talk about. You donâ€™t want me to be this. Well, that’s who I am. So I think there’s always that internal battle between what we should do versus what we are. I have an amazing story about that for when I started my speaking career. May I share?
Joshua: Iâ€™ll first share that. Thereâ€™s something I got to ask is that are you able to do that because you’ve reached a certain stage or did you reach a certain stage because you’re able to do that orâ€¦ Because a lot of people feel like, I certainly feel like if I’m like yesterday, no, today it’s Friday, so Wednesday I had a big full day coaching session at this company. And even though it’s an engineering place and they have, you know no one there is wearing a jacket but I still wore a collared shirt with a jacket because I want it to look proper. I feel comfortable in it and I didnâ€™t feel like I was faking me. But you know I would have been probably a little more comfortable not wearing that but I wantedâ€¦It was my first full day there. So I wouldn’t have done what you did. Now am I holding myself back? Am I likeâ€¦ And I think a lot of people probably listening are thinking, â€œYeah, you can do that but I can’t.â€
Dov: But again we’re back to the same thing around what you should and versus who you are. So you know if there’s any part of you that feels like you’re betraying who you are, then I would suggest don’t do it. Let me tell you that story because it really will answer that question.
When I started speaking 34 years ago and I’m only 36. So thatâ€™s pretty good. Thirty-four years ago a friend of mine invited me to speak. And I knew him because I owned another business name was actually a client of mine and we’d have these great philosophical conversations and one day he came in and he said to me, â€œI want you to come speak to my national managers meeting, he owns the National Menswear company. I said, â€œAbout what?â€ And he goes, â€œAnything you want.â€ And I’m like, â€œWhat do you mean anything?â€ He goes, â€œWe have these great conversations. And I want you to come talk to them and because you’re always very insightful.â€ And I go, â€œOK. I’m not really a speaker.â€ And he goes, â€œNo, I know.â€ I go, â€œHow long do you want me to speak?â€ He’s like, â€œAn hourâ€ and I’m like, â€œWow! No! That’s not going to happen!â€ An hour is a warm-up but then it was like it freaked me out and he goes, â€œWell, just 15-20-30 minutes.â€ I said OK. Then he said, â€œBut I have a condition.â€ And I am thinking, â€œOK, here it comes.â€ Because this is a national menswear company in the 1980s. They got a tight suit. They got the suits on the button down, they wear a tie. You know it’s very Wall Street looking.
Joshua: So not Don Johnson looking. It could have been that too.
Dov: It could have been that too but it wasnâ€™t Miami device. So he says, â€œIs that OK?â€ I’m like, â€œUhmâ€¦ So what do you want? What is the condition?â€ He goes, â€œI want you to show up looking just like this. [13:53] was looking that day. Now this was 1984. I studied bodybuilding about five years before that, four-five years before that. When you are in your early 20s and you’re a bodybuilder, I’m still a bodybuilder but it’s different. When you’re in your early 20s and you’re a bodybuilder, there’s a tendency certainly for me at least to wear shirts that are too smallâ€¦
Joshua: So as to show off.
Dov: Now my wife’s, itâ€™s summer time and my wifeâ€™s like, â€œWhy don’t you wear T-shirt?â€ Iâ€™m like, â€œNo, no. I work out for me.â€ In the mid-20s it was like showing off. And so that day came in I had a tight, tight T-shirt on that, tight jeans that ripped across the knees, my hair was down to my chest like the old, whatâ€™s his name, Howard Stern hair, you know the movie the 30. The designerâ€™s [14:34] earrings were big enough that you could hang pirates off them. And he said, â€œI want you to come look likeâ€¦â€ But Iâ€™m like, â€œBut, mate. You know I’ve got suits? Because that’s how I met him. He originally made my suits because I loved suits but I also had this very casual side. He goes, â€œNo, I don’t want you to wear a suit. I want you to wear this.â€ I said OK. He says, â€œWhen you show up put your head in the door. Just let them see you. It’s as if I’m speaking just wait and I’ll call you and I will let youâ€¦But make sure they can see you.â€ I’m like OK. [15:03]?â€ He goes, â€œNo, no.â€ Let it just be down.â€ Iâ€™m like, â€œThis is weird.â€
OK. So I show up on the day, Iâ€™m there and I put my head in the door and I can see these guys and they are giving me what we term in England as the bugger off not which means their head is going to the side to say â€œBugger off, get out of here, leave the place.â€ So they try it and I can see that they’re looking like I’m clearly in the room as far as they’re concerned. And then Steve says, â€œPlease welcome our speaker Dov.â€ And you know I was like clunk as [15:32] at the desk. And I walk up. Now Iâ€™ll tell you that you know I’m looking tight T-shirt, jeans, long hair, all the rest of it. And I walked up and I can tell you that I have no idea what I spoke about but I can clearly remember what I spoke, what I did at the intro.
This is the early 1980s in Australia. Racism was a big issue with the Aboriginal people and I said, â€œPut your hand up if you are a racist.â€ Now you can imagine nobody in that room is going to put their hand up. And I said, â€œPut your hand up if you judge people by the color of their skin or in any way the way they look.â€ Nobody puts their hand up. And I said, â€œYou’re a bunch of freaking liars. Every single one of you judged me based on how I look right now. You decided my intelligence, you decided my income, you decided whether I could possibly be a customer for you or if I have anything of meaning to offer. You decided all of that based on the way I look and that’s your problem because I actually am a customer. That’s how I know Steve. And I look over to Steve and I think, â€œOK, I’ve shit the bed on this one.â€ And I look over but instead Steve looks like he’s space’s been slashed open because he’s got a huge grin on his face and he was delighted with what I delivered.
Joshua: Did you know what are you’re going to say before you walked in?
Dov: No clue.
Joshua: That’s because of what happened. You saw their expressions and commented on.
Dov: Ok, I just noticed, I paid attention and noticed so I went OK. So I did that, Steve was delighted. About 2-3 weeks later Steve came in and he says to me, â€œOh, I spoke to Allister another national organization and he said he told him what happened and he said, â€œHe would love you to come speak for them.â€ I said, â€œOh, great. Fantastic.â€ Now I’m kind of excited. And he goes, â€œHe wants you to do half an hour.â€ Fabulous. So what do I do? I do my research. I start looking at speakers. I donâ€™t know anything about speakers. [17:14] speakers, looking at what they do, how they are, blah blah blah and immediately cut off all my hair, shave off my beard, give myself a look that I will show you, Joshua, a photograph of me at some point in time. Everybody who looks at it thinks I look older than I do now. I was 24 years, 23-24 years old and I look like a bad car salesman in a tight suit and tie and just not me. Now what worked the first time? I was completely raw, completely authentic and totally vulnerable. I died a death the second time. The second presentation was awful.
Joshua: Yeah, because they are judging you against standards that you couldn’t match as opposed to your own standards.
Dov: Well, I traded my authenticity for something that should be. Because in the 1980s speakers were a blue suit, white shirt, red tie. I had a blue suit, white shirt, red tie. I wore the uniform. I did not stand out. It was no point of distinction. I was doing what I should do. And I think that this is what is the great problem with leadership. We look at leaders and we go, â€œThis is what I’m supposed to be.â€ Instead of saying, â€œThis is who I am.â€ One of the things that makes you stand up, Joshua, is the reason that you were introduced to me is because my friend said, â€œI had him on my show. He doesn’t do leadership the way other people do leadership. He’s not teaching in the way other people teach leadership. He’s like you. He’s radically different, he’s approaching it from a completely different matrix. I think you should talk to him.â€ If you immediately then go start trading that to look like the other ding-a-lings who are doing it, who the hell is going to remember you? So it’s like understanding we live in a world, a sea of people doing stuff and you have to have a point of differentiation. If that’s manufactured, that’s going to be a problem. Definitely people will see a bullshit a mile away.
But asking yourself who are you at the deepest level might work as in helping people to come back to that core purpose, what I call the sole purpose. When you get to that part of yourself, then what you bring forward is completely authentic and it has a point of differentiation by its very nature.
Joshua: Let’s see. How do I put this? I began at the beginning like everybody else because I felt like that’s what I was supposed to do. And for me I had grown up you know thereâ€™s this phrase a Nice Guy. You know capital N and capital G. It’s like I try to be nice to people, I put people on pedestals and things like that. I hadn’t expressed myself so fully to that time. So like no one ever said there was never an occasion like you talked about for me and my way of getting to authenticity was to do lots and lots and lots of presentations where I died these deaths and each time I was like, â€œWell, that didn’t work. That’s it…â€ And each time I think of like I have shells around me and I got rid of the shell after shell after shell after shell. And actually sometimes I bring people into inner shells.
And so for me it was a lot of rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal, practice, practice, practice and each time brought out a little bit more. That was like my path because I didn’t knowâ€¦ People would say, â€œBe yourselfâ€ and I was like from my perspective there was no nothing else I could do. What else could I do but be myself? And the other thing was I don’t know who that is anymore. Iâ€™ve just been so muchâ€¦
Dov: Such a ridiculous statement â€œBe yourself.â€ Well, who the hell else would I be? But the question is not being yourself, it’s in looking at do you know yourself. And that’s that most people know themselves at the level they know. If you’re in the pool at three feet facing the shallow end, how deep is the pool? It’s three feet. That’s all I know. The fact that there’s actually 12 feet behind you, 12 feet depth behind you is not even part of your consciousness.
Are you willing to go into that deeper level? That deeper level is the exploration of who we are as human beings finding out what it is that truly matters to us, finding out what it is that we stand for finding out what is the hell we are willing to die for, finding out what it is we’re willing to fight against and what it is that we are willing to fight for. Those are the things that reveal us.
Joshua: Now how do people find that out who don’tâ€¦. I mean people come to you for coaching. And I haven’t gotten coaching from you but I’m listening to you and I’m like, â€œYou can help me a lot.â€
Dov: Sure. And I work with people like you. They’re very successful. They’re doing great things but they go that place and go, â€œI know there is a deeper level of me and I want to get to that and I want to find that purpose pieceâ€. So, yeah, that is it. That’s the driver but it’s not there for everybody, Joshua, it’s not.
Joshua: Yeah, that’s the thing isâ€¦ So if someone’s listening they’re like, â€œI want to do but I’m scared.â€
Joshua: That’s like a good starting point.
Dov: That’s a fabulous starting point. Because the point that you are scared means you already recognized you’re holding onto something that’s not the truth but you are looking for something that is and the scare is â€œIf I let go of what’s familiar, what happens?â€ There’s this void between what I know and what I want. And that void is a terrifying place. So if you feel scared that for me is like that’s exciting. OK. By the way, calling to brain chemistry there’s a one molecule difference between terrified and excited – one molecule. That’s all.
Joshua: Yeah, I’ve heard that a doctor given your vital statistics can’t tell the difference between anxiety and excitement. That’s purely mental. Your palms may be sweating, your pulse may be faster. But medically speaking or physically speaking it’s the same.
Dov: Same stuff.
Joshua: And so if you learn how to shift one to the other, that’s like you can turn fear into excitement or anxiety into excitement.
Dov: And that state management which is part of what we are able to do is help now state management shift the state from one place to another so that you can actually turn that fear into excitement.
Joshua: Someone is living and they are saying, â€œOk, I’m facing the shallow end. I’m scared. I feel fear. Now Dov says that’s great. That means that something we’re excited about but I haven’t been that deep. And I feel like I might drown.â€ Now you’re not going to drown. But what does happen? I mean I’m listening to you. I’m like wow that’s like living uninhibited freely, like you and me talking I love the depth of friendship that we get very quickly and most of my life I was not open to that. So I really like it and I always want more. Some people are like, â€œI haven’t taken the first step yet.â€ What do they look forward to? Why should they take on this fear? Because maybe it doesn’t pan out. I mean from their perspective them I think it won’t pan out. I think it will, if they put the effort in.
Dov: Absolutely. So why should they? There is no should. Don’t should yourself. It won’t help. Stop shoulding on yourself, stop shoulding on others. It doesn’t help. But what you have to ask is this a) do you have success? And most of us have something that we can label as success. But do you have significance? And the significance is so you can have impact and do you have purpose so you can have fulfillment. If you want fulfillment, you’ve got to have a purpose. So if that matters to you, which it doesn’t for everybody, then you go, â€œThat’s what I’m aspiring to.â€ See for me I am always aspiring to making a greater difference, having a greater impact so that I can have that level of fulfillment that comes to me. But I can’t do that unless I honor my purpose. I have to honor that purpose. So why it’s wonderful for me is because on the shittiest day I can still say I had impact. I can still go a walk to Starbucks and know that I can impact at least three people just walk into Starbucks and maybe the only impact I have is as crappy as I might be feeling, I can smile at that person genuinely and watch their eyes light up.
Joshua: Is it a fair conclusion that fear that you have felt enough times and maybe it was only once and maybe that was enough, that fear that you felt you now associate that with the purpose that it leads you to discover or that is hiding? And now for you it’s like, â€œOh, fear! Great! That means more purpose.â€
Dov: Thatâ€™s a great question. And I think that that is an entirely subjective. So for some people fear is just another way of saying Stop. And I think that fear is a very appropriate feeling and it doesn’t have a single conclusion. So sometimes fear should mean stop. If you’re standing on the edge of a cliff and you feel fear, yeah, it should mean stop. If you’re standing on the edge of a metaphorical cliff and you’re about to fly, then don’t stop. The question is though do you really want to fly? Because if you don’t really want to fly, you’re just going to stay frozen on the cliff. And so what are you willing to ask for? What do you want?
This is what I got ask you who are listening as you’re here right now. What do you really want? Like I know you will say you want a penthouse apartment in Manhattan. I know you will say you want a Bentley. I know you will say you want a whatever it is. You want to buy the wife a new set of tits. Maybe you want a new set of tits. But what do you actually want?
Joshua: What are they for?
Dov: What do you want?
Joshua: What’s the meaning behind them?
Dov: All those things are taking you somewhere and very often, most often they’re not taking you anyway way you actually want to go to. And so what I’m about is the depth of who you are. What it is that you want at a soulful level? See I believe this. We go into business, we go into leadership to reconcile our soul, to bring home the disenfranchised, the compartmentalized parts of ourselves that it was not OK to be. Just like me when I spoke and I was authentic and it was wonderful and then I completely fractured and disenfranchised myself. It took me another four-five years to bring myself back to a place I already knew I had to be in. It is insane! It’s nuts! But that’s what we do. The social conditioning on this that it created a hunger in me. And this is the key, it’s the hunger, not just the fear. Because you’re what you’ve got is a conflicting notion between fear and hunger. If you have fear without hunger, you’re going to stay stuck. If you have hunger without fear, there doesn’t seem to be any obstacle and the hunger will fade fast. So you have to have both of those states. So it’s like I am so hungry for this and I’m terrified. But Iâ€™ve got to get to this place. I’m going to die if I don’t. I feel like I’m dying inside, if I don’t do this and break through this and it kills me. It kills me that I’m not being all those things that I can be for the people that I love for the difference that I can make. Oh my God! And people go, â€œBut Dov, we are not as big as you. We are not as grandiose.â€ You *******! Every single one of you came to this planet, came with a reason, with a purpose and it wasn’t to die at the end of your life by fading away quietly in your sleep. It was to come to a screeching halt knowing that you’ve made impact. Now, your impact may not be on stage with a thousand people, your impact might be in a grocery store. Your impact might be an amazing human being you can be while you knit. I don’t know. It’s not about grandiosity. It is about soulful desire to fulfill the purpose that I came here to do.
Joshua: That’s in everybody.
Dov: Everybody. Everybody.
Joshua: Most people are not fulfilling this.
Dov: You don’t even know about it because they’re so socially conditioned, they quote live in the matrix and so they keep recycling the *******.
Joshua: And so everybody listening right now it’s like there’s a part of them that says, â€œYes, Dov is saying something that I know to be true definitely about myself. And they’re also saying, â€œBut I’m scaredâ€¦â€ Or hopefully they’re saying they can contact you. I mean actually I want to get in a second like how do they contact you and things like that and how they follow up. But I hear your passion is to help people find that, draw out, build on it and ultimately become what’s already in them now and they know that it’s there.
Dov: Yeah. You know like I said leadership, business, they are ways for us to reconcile, they are ways for us to fulfill that. That’s just the vehicle you’re using. That’s fabulous. I’m totally encouraging you to do that. But if you do it for its own sake and you don’t do it to reconcile those parts of yourself, to bring home that disenfranchised part of yourself, you’ll never be satisfied, there will always be another place you’re trying to get to. And so it becomes externalized.
What we call it three circles of hell and not seven but three. And the first circle is about accumulation: I’m not good enough, so I got to accumulate more so I go out in the world and I will get a car, I will get a house and I’ll get all that stuff. And the problem with it is it works. It satiates as momentarily. It feels good [29:51] so I get to go after another goal, a bigger goal and it will last longer but it doesn’t. So that’s the first circle of hell and it is so dissatisfying. The second circle of hell is why people become workshop junkies because they go all that stuff is not working, tell me, â€œI don’t feel whole even though I’ve got a Bentley and I have a big house. So thereâ€™s clearly something wrong with me. I’ve got to go to work on me.â€ And so they take the workshops, they do the development, they do therapy and I’m encouraging people to do all those things. Please do all that. I’m supportive about that. What will they end up with these recycling that, â€œGosh, I’m so fucked up, thereâ€™s still something wrong with me. What is it? Thereâ€™s something missing.â€ So they go all this workshop stuff doesn’t work. Obviously that’s bogus. And so what they will do now is they go the other way. And so there is a recycle back into collecting stuff again and go, â€Well, at least because now I’m actually more miserable because I’ve discovered my crap and I can’t do anything about it.â€ And so they recycle those first two circles over and over until they enter the third circle.
And the third circle is the third circle of hell but it’s also that the first circle of heaven. And it’s the third circle of hell because it’s terrifying, because it’s not about accumulating. It’s not about anything you can get. It’s about everything you can give up. And it’s not just talking about being some Zen monk on the mountaintop. You can still live in a penthouse in Manhattan but it does nothing to accumulate. So if it’s nothing to accumulate, what is it? It’s coming back to the fact that I’m already whole. What if you are already whole? And what if you could remember that, then what would be the gift you would bring? Because none of us entered the planetâ€¦ Think about this. This is one of my favorite analogies on this. I want you to imagine for a moment the day you were born. As you’re listening to this just picture that day and not for everybody but for most of us, the greatest majority of us, somebody held you in their arms. It might have been your mom, it might have been your dad, it might have been your grandparents, it might have been a relative, it might have been a doctor or a nurse. But somebody looked in the moment you were born and they held you in their hands when you fit into the length of their arm with your head in their palm and they looked at you in your fuzzy little eyes and they said to you, â€œYou’re a miracle.â€
Now, they may not have said it out loud but they may have thought it – you’re a miracle. They didn’t look you and go, â€œThere’s something missing. You are not quite whole.â€ They went, â€œYou are a miracle.â€ You were born whole and complete and you spent the rest of your life thinking you weren’t. My job is to get you back to that place so you can find a way you came here. When you’re in that place, then you are on fire.
Joshua: Well, I don’t know what to say now. I feel likeâ€¦
Joshua: Yeah, I mean I thank you very much for sharing that. And I guess thereâ€™s a couple of things we can learn. One is if someone wants more of this, should they just read your book? Should they contact you?
Dov: You can contact me. As you know I speak all over the world. But I also work privately one-on-one with coach, leaders who want to go to that next level, who want to get to, as I said, significance and fulfillment through purpose. So you can write to me directly. My email is very simple â€“ firstname.lastname@example.org. And people would think I’m crazy for giving up my private email but I do it. I’m even going to give you my phone number. Itâ€™s 778-379- 7517. 778-379-7517. You can call me. It’s my office. I probably won’t pick it up but I will get the message and I will respond to you. If you email me, email meâ€¦ You know what? I want to challenge everybody right now.
Joshua goes out finds great people for his podcast to talk to and gives his time and his guests time to you as a gift. Do something back. Go on iTunes, rate, review and subscribe to the show. That’s number one. Number two, write to Joshua and thank him for taking the time to bring on the guests and take the time to do all the things he does to make this happen and write to me and tell me what you got out of this. If I pissed you off, that’s okay. If I irritated you, that’s okay. If I inspired you, that’s okay. If I made you shake in your boots but you know this is what you’ve got to do, if you want more of this and you really want to get this, call me, right to me. Tell us, tell me, tell Joshua what you got out of it. Otherwise, it’s just stuff in your head and you go, â€œOh, that was really powerful.â€ And then Monday will come. And what will happen on Monday? You have to send the kids to school, you will have to wipe the babyâ€™s ass, you’ll have to deal with the fires that are going on in the office and you will forget about your soul. You’ve got to remember that that’s where the fulfillment is.
Joshua: I’m even more speechless now. I’m trying to figure out if you’re more vulnerable, more generous, more eloquent. Thank you for sharing. I was probably thinking so say someone does this, what comes out? And I think you are what comes out. Of course you for you, others for others and they’re not going to turn into you. They’re going to turn into their version.
Dov: Yeah, you know it was very interesting because I had a conversation with a very good friend of mine in New York this morning about that. We were talking about what do people get? And I said, â€œYou know it’s very difficult because we like to put things in categories and boxes and say you know blah blah blah.â€ And I said, â€œYou know it happens people work with me. It’s not unusual for their business to go through the roof.â€
One of my clients we had this discussion two days ago and he saidâ€¦ He and I have been working together now for 11 years so he’s been my client for 11 years ongoing. That was not my plan. But that’s what he wants. His business has grown five thousand percent not 5, not 50, not 500, 5000 percent and in the first six months his business grew 500 percent. We wrap this conversation [35:31] and he goes, â€œDo you know much my business is growing?â€ And so I said, â€œYeah, you told me.â€ And he goes, â€œBut we’ve not discussed business once.â€ And I said, â€œThat’s true.â€
And he goes, â€œWhy do you think my business has grown so much?â€ And I said, â€œBecause your mistake is most people’s mistake is you think your business is not you.â€ When you work on you and you get that clarity and you are coming from purposing every conversation in every interaction when you reveal yourself, when you tell people that the struggles you’ve gone through and if you can do it, they can see that they can do it. They want to do business with you, they magnetize to you and that’s what happens. And I will tell you now I have been through more than you could possibly imagine. I did not come at this from an academic point of view. I did not come at this from I was born lucky. I was born in abject poverty surrounded by violence, crime and addiction.
That’s where I was born. I was married at 16 years old. That wasâ€¦ People were like, â€œOh my God.â€ You know what? [36:28] pregnant. That was a choice. I took my mother to court and won so that I could get married. That was a choice. It was a pure act of rebellion. I was divorced at 21. It lasted five years. Most people don’t last five years if they get married at 40. Why did we fail? Because we were young. No! Because we were doing the same crap everybody else does. I had to go through a divorce to learn how to do healthy relationships. I was terrible at relationships, awful, completely destructive in all of my relationships. I’ve been close to bankruptcy twice. I’ve done things so wrong and so badly and screwed up and felt and gone through deep dark depression and felt suicidal, deeply suicidal. I’ve been on the biggest stages and served the greatest people and walked off those stages and seriously thought about how I could kill myself. I know the dark side. I know it very well. And to be in this place where my heart and soul is on fire, that I’ll transform from coming back to purpose, by transforming into purpose, getting my ego out of the way and revealing the struggle. Because listen, you look at my life, you look at Joshua and you go, â€œWow, I wish I was like those guys.â€ Listen, everybody’s life looks gorgeous in a podcast. Everybody’s life looks gorgeous on Facebook it’s glamorous. There’s a slog to that.
And the slog is doesn’t need to be in the world it’s like dig in, find you. Because as Joseph Campbell said, â€œThe cave in which you fear to step into for is darkness is the cave which holds your treasure.â€ And that cave is you looking into that cave is where you will find the greatest treasure and you will be impacted, you will be changed and transformed and transmuted and you will change transforming and transmuting of those you interact with.
Joshua: And it sounds like it also takes everything that led up to it and makes it allâ€¦ It all makes sense inâ€¦ Everything that you took everything that was awesome and horrible and everything, the times you wanted to jump off a bridge, the times that you felt elated and all of that came together into what you are now and none of it was waste time, it feels like.
Dov: Yeah, you know… And in fairness to people with depression because I had some very dark depression. It feels like the best solution is to end it. And the only thing that would keep me going is that when things were good I would make myself remember how good this is right now whatever this moment is. And I would make myself also remember so right next to it how shitty I felt in the past. And I’d say I could not have this delicious moment if I have taken that out. So next time I was feeling shitty Iâ€™d go, â€œYeah, but remember there’s something joyous out there that I don’t even know, can’t visualize, canâ€™t even imagineâ€. But it is out there and if I can just get through this, I can get to the next delicious moment but that’s not a way to live. That’s a way to stop but then go and what is it? What is it that drags me into this darkness? And what drags you into darkness is those first two circles of hell which is feeling like I’m not enough, there’s something wrong with me, that inherent what’s wrong with me, whatâ€™ wrong with me, whatâ€™s wrong with me. I’m somehow defective until you get to the third place of â€œNo, I’m whole.â€ And not from some bullshit mind set thing. Now it’s about leadership and mindset. It’s just new ways of saying positive thinking, it’s crap. It’s actually getting connected to your heart and your soul and being willing to share that vulnerability of saying â€œI am so uncomfortable right now. This is what’s going on for me.â€
Can I tell you one more story of that?
Joshua: Yes, please.
Dov: It was 2008 so not that long ago. You remember what happened in 2008 to the world?
Joshua: [40:13] economically, financially.
Dov: Exactly. It was economic crash. And I had this amazing guy working with me, I loved him to bits. He was a fabulous guy, did amazing work. He was my market and he was like you know we got to put a product together and get it out there, it was a physical product world and we’ve got to get it out. OK.
So we created this whole process and I invested everything I had to do that financially. Everything. I mean went against everything and did it. It was a marvelous market and so I knew we could make it. I believed in that. It was a phenomenal product and the week it was released CNN announced we are in a global recession and people went like that and shut their purses and shut their wallets and freaked the hell out and [40:54] buy anything. And I had storage lockers filled with this product. And I was like, â€œOh crap, I’ve paid everything for this. I have some debt with it but I have no income coming in from it. And I just fell into this depressive moment.â€
Now I was already on purpose, so it just can be clear that the depression of that, the devastation of that was very obvious and I felt I didn’t feel suicidal but I felt very dark and very depressed. And I thought I began to question maybe I am in the wrong place. Maybe this is a sign that I’m always [41:27]? Is this a sign that I’m off my path? So I began to consider that.
The very next morning I had a scheduled event. It was called First Access. These were events that I used to do where I would sit in the front of a university room you knowâ€¦
Joshua: Pick a theater and an auditoriumâ€¦
Dov: Exactly. But it was kind of like a town hall where I would sit there and I would for two days I would answer any question you want. Anything. You can ask me anything you want.
And so we get questions about reincarnation because I done all my as you know I traveled the world to study with all these great masters and so I get questions about reincarnation, about Conspiracy theory, about alien ships but I also get about relationship and love and money and consciousness and wonderful conversations about the depth of leadership, what leadership is and there are these amazing conversations. I had to go do this. I had to be totally present for this event. And I got to this event feeling devastated. I had to go because I have integrity because that’s what I committed to do.
And I sat in my car, in the car park and I wept and I just went I’ve got nothing. I have nothing left, Iâ€™ve got no energy, Iâ€™ve got no fuel in the tank. But I had commitment. So I went and I sat in the front of the room and I told them. I said, â€œHere’s what happened.â€ And I said, â€œAnd I’m in just a really ***** place.â€ People cried. People opened up. People shared their stories, shared their struggles. There was a lineup of people at the end for people to tell me how I touched their lives by sharing that vulnerability. By the end of that day I was at the top of my game again. I felt better than I ever felt. By the way, I sold a hundred thousand dollars with product that day. When I was in my brain bankrupt the day before but transformed everything.
That vulnerability is so powerful but we are so terrified of it because we fear will be rejected. But we all need to know that we’re not alone. We only need to know that we’re not the only one on this journey and you coming back to your purpose and finding that operating from that and presenting that allows others to see there is something over the horizon and it’s my soul. So you’re right. People will ask, â€œWell, what do I get?â€ Yeah, their business will grow up. What you get is you get the pure authentic, you know there is a word thrown around and it doesn’t mean much but you get the pure, authentic, purposeful self that is you that will get you up in the morning on a ****** day, that will get you more present in your relationships than you’ve ever been, it will have you be a parent like you dreamed of being, like will you have be the partner you really want to be.
I don’t go to sleep at night anytime ever. Whether I’m here or away and I don’t wake up any morning without both of those times thanking my wife for choosing to marry me. She’s a gift to me every single day. That’s not positive thinking. That’s the truth. I could talk up her life right now. Iâ€™ve been 20 years with her. I’m more in love with her than the day I married her. She’s a greater blessing to me than anything in my life. Every day I am grateful for her and because of that every day I’m curious. This is one of the things that happens when people are purposeful with deeply curious. We want to know more. People who are not connected to that they’ve already got the answers their life is flat, the curiosity disappears. When you tap into that curiosity, the life becomes this amazing place to live. I’m always curious to know more. I’m excited to get to discover more about Joshua and find out what drives him, what’s underneath the hood and what’s in his heart and his soul, what is his struggles and what is his dream. What is it that sets him on fire? I’m curious about that. I’m still curious about that with my wife 20 years in.
Joshua: Thank you again for sharing what you’re sharing and so much of what you’re saying is so the opposite of what others say. And yet you can hear it and you like this is right. That stuff was like I can try really hard and maybe if I take the seminar or whatever I’ll get there. But you it’s just like, â€œOh yeah, of course.â€ Why I wasn’t distracted from looking at it that way? I want to ask youâ€¦ You just talked about your wife and that relationship of 20 years and as you were talking about this I couldn’t help but think about something for me.
Two months old, this podcast. People who are listening to this, if they listen to a bunch of episodes, they’ll hear me say every now and then. Actually I was talking to someone a little while ago when I said for the first time, â€œI believe that what we need is I’m glad we have an Elon Musk, I’m glad we have an Al Gore. I think we need a Nelson Mandela, a Vaclav Havel and Martin Luther King of the environment, someone to lead people. And if someone can do it better than me, great. But I don’t see it happening and so I’m going to do it. I amâ€¦ And it’s take me a lotâ€¦ I’m doing it right now. I’m not saying it, I’m trying to like I’m going to be or I am the Martin Luther King of the environment. And it’s what I think it’s what’s necessary and I think it matters what I do in leadership and all the passion that got me teaching mentorship and challenging myself and growing and brings in something from long time ago, my science background, the PhD in physics, also deep passion that I was just kind of I thought maybe I was done with that for life. And now it’s bringing it altogether and I’m thinking if I’m at the pool, maybe I’m not looking at the shallow end but I donâ€™t think I’ve yet looked at the deep end. I know it’s there, Iâ€™m kind of like a crab walking sideways instead of going in. Soâ€¦
Dov: It’s a great analogy.
Joshua: Any advice?
Dov: First of all, I want to applaud you genuinely as you spoke about that on my podcast about why you know that the world needs of Martin Luther King or Gandhi of the environment. You know you and I talked about the visionaries of the environment are the Elon Musk of the world? I mean the guy gave away his patents for electric cars at a business level that stupid **** to do. But at a level that he wants the world to be a cleaner place is amazing, thatâ€™s wonderful. That is outstanding and again full tip of the hat to that boy. But you want to be that the first, my first thing to say to you is what does it mean to you. Now you say, â€œI am willing to be that until somebody else can come along.â€ Fine. What does it mean to you? And this is for you and anybody listening when you say â€œI want to beâ€ what does it mean to you? Because that’s what counts.
Joshua: I went through these changes in my personal life and you probably heard me say it before but you know the big two are stopping eating packaged food and stopping flying and it sounds like negative. But these have become the best things in my life. Just before I came on with you, a friend was visiting from out of town. Normally we go to a cafe or bar or a restaurant and be loud and whatever. And no, it’s coming into my home and having my food that I made and this is like you know totally from scratch, from farmers that in a few weeks I’m going to the farm. It’s like one of the highlights of my summer. And I’ve never seen broccoli growing before. I’ve never seen eggplants growing before. And you know what? There’s a video. Oh God, I kept having to put this up. There’s me hanging out with Marshall Goldsmith. I was talking for a few hours and at one point in a way that Marshall Goldsmith does is he just digs into you but he says it very nicely and is like, â€œJosh, the whole time that we’ve been here you have said one thing that well, like all these awesome things one thing that made you vulnerable, that made you human. And it was I’m afraid ofâ€¦â€ I forgot the exact words but it was like, â€œI’m afraid people wonâ€™t like my cooking.â€
And he picked up on this one. The one vulnerability that I expressed was like I was getting good at cooking, my style. I am not taking any lessons. And other people might not like it but I was afraid of having people over and I was like that’s a vulnerability that I got to work on. And it’s become this huge passion. I loveâ€¦ Like did I invite you, did I say I would make you stew when we talked before?
Dov: You did.
Joshua: OK. So this is likeâ€¦ You know what? You said it, I’m doing it. Anyone who is listening to this, if you’re around New York City, you want to come to New York City, get in touch with me. Fuck. Iâ€™ll do it â€“ 917-309-5674. I don’t have people answering the phone for me though. Anyway, if we make the schedules work out, I’ll make you some of my famous vegetable stew. And thank you, Dov, for inspiring me and I use the term inspiration to mean change behavior, not just a feeling.
In any case, answering your question of what it means is this is really one of the best things in my life, two of the best. It sounds like it’s not doing X, not doing Y but it isâ€¦ What is more important than food? It literally becomes you. And travel is like, yeah it’s great. I like seeing other places. I like this in other cultures. That’s not out there. If you think it’s out there, you’re depriving yourself of what you can do for yourself and that’s what this is about. The way the world got this way is it people believing that it’s out there. People believing that just people born today are bought into this way of looking at the world. It’s not how to look at it and it doesn’t reward you in the way thatâ€¦ Like in my case, delicious food from a farm nearby. It’s like you figure out how to do it and for me it’s food, for me it was location notâ€¦ The opposite of travel is community. Local like the where you are, the people around you, neighborhood and for others will be different things. But that discovery it’s very easy to go your whole life and never challenge yourself because everyoneâ€¦ I could be wrong in this but I think that everyone wants clean air and clean water. And if you value that and you’re polluting the water and you’re polluting the air whether you want to or not, whether you mean to or not you’re not living consistently with your values. And I think that eats you up inside, whether you know it or not whether youâ€™re conscious of it or not.
And this is the opposite of that. Yes, you’re going to go through a struggle ofâ€¦ I went through a struggle, like for a while I was, I didn’t know what to do with my time because I wanted to travel and had to say no to certainâ€¦ I was invited these really cool conferences and I couldnâ€™t go. And I had some really bland food for a good 6 months to a year because I didn’t know what to do. I go to a store and I can’t buy that, got to buy that. Broccoli, steamed, salt, pepper, once or twice â€“ great. 6 months – not so great. But then you realize, â€œOh, the broccoli actually taste pretty good with the lentils and you know salt was okay but if I put that other spice in it, it tastes even better.â€ And next thing you know people are like I never tasted anything like this. How did you do this?â€ I just put it together. And that’s what I want for people is like for them to create their own worlds of joy, discovery and things like that based on their values. That right now it’s so easy to say you know I got friends and I’ve talked about this on other episodes. They eat Domino’s pizza in Manhattan andâ€¦Alright, have your pizza like I don’t even want pizza, because I like just the vegetables. Alright, so get your pizza but Dominoâ€™s?! Iâ€™ll give them the benefit the doubt that they just like it more. But I feel like maybe they’re just not, they haven’t challenged themselves to find out what more.
Dov: Well, you know, you said something that I found very interesting and I think is important for people to get. And you said about living you know out of alignment with our values but values exist on different levels and this is important for everybody to understand. Let’s do this simple exercise for a moment. You know if I was in front of the room I would have people… I would say, â€œHow many of you know of a fitness program that would probably work for you?â€ Everybody in the room knows. And then I would say, â€œHow many of you are doing it?â€ No, it isn’t enough. And I would say, â€œNow let me ask you another question. How many of you believe that it’s important, that is of value to be healthy?â€ Everybody puts their hand up. Now you all put your hand up. You all know there’s an exercise program. [52:44] said it’s a value, it’s important to you, yet 20 percent of you are doing it. How do you bring that home? How do you reconcile that? And the answer is because the value is what I think I should value versus what I actually value. What you actually value is what you do. So donâ€™t tell you value family when you never spend any time with your family. Don’t tell me you value the environment when you go to the supermarket and you buy things that come in packages. Don’t tell me that you value nutrition when you’re buying Domino’s Pizza.
I’m fine. I am not to judge any of it. I donâ€™t care. Personally itâ€™s your life. I honor your choices. You want to eat packet fruit. I have family members that’s all they eat. You want to eat food from packages, you want to eat big production pizza â€“ fantastic! Go for it. But don’t ******* yourself and certainly don’t drive me by telling me your values. Your values are demonstrated by how you live. I think it was an American president who said that your actions scream far louder than your words. Yeah, you got to pay attention to that so that’s when you let go and you shut up. You got [53:56] us, as Jews like to say. You get [53:58] about it because speak it if you can live it, speak it if you are aspiring to live it. You donâ€™t have to be perfect. Like I’m sure you’re not perfect in your environmental behavior. But you are actively doing it every single day doing something towards that, that is personal leadership. There is no leadership of another until you can do personal leadership. Many of the shittiest leaders in the world have massive titles and they’re awful because they can’t demonstrate leadership by how they live. This is what it takes. So your values are exactly the same thing how you are demonstrating them. If you say I’m all about family and you’re out screwing hookers on the weekend and working 90 hours a week, that’s not friendly. That’s an aspirational value.
So again the difference between your behavioral values and your aspirational values and then your purpose values, which are a whole different level, whole different level again.
Joshua: So now I’m going to leave it here for listeners as this is now all teaser. Find out more about Dov. I presume we are just scratching the surface. But now I want to talk to you about the environment. And so you agree to this. It’s not just leadership podcast, it’s leadership and environment. And what is the environment to you? Is it a big deal? Is it a little deal? Do you think about it a lot?
Dov: I do think about it a lot. I think about it a lot and I am a weird individual in that I am willing to consider the other argument that I’m not willing to be absolute about it. So when they say the climate change is not due to manmade gases I go, â€œOK, I’m willing to listen.â€™ Tell me that. Tell me about that. And every now and then I hear something and I go, â€œThat’s interesting.â€
Now I understand [55:46]. I do understand how they work and I understand that the planet has gone through climate change many times before. I understand that the planet has actually been eradicated by climate way before we arrived and the sedimentary traces will show us that the planet has been wiped out at least four times. That’s interesting to look at that from a geological physics point of view. Very interesting. However, I love the argument and that is very simple. That is what if the environmentalists are wrong, what will happen to the planet? Versus what if they are right and we don’t do anything?
If the environmentalists are completely wrong and are full of ****, what’s going to happen to the planet? Maybe nothing. But it’s absolutely right and you guys do nothingâ€¦ So for me it’s always that for me everything is a relationship. This is why the environment bothers me. We human beings are in relationship with each other. We are in a relationship with our host environment meaning our family and stuff but we’re also we’re in relationship with this thing called the planet we live on and we’re in relationship with that. And for me I can pretty muchâ€¦ Many years ago I put out a challenge to somebody and I said, it was actually a bunch of leaders and I said, â€œGive me 20 minutes in your house and I’ll tell you everything you need to know about yourself.â€ They were like, â€œYeah, yeahâ€. I said, â€œHonestly, 20 minutes and in 20 minutes I’m restricted to wander through your house. If I can wander through your house for 20 minutes, I’ll tell you everything you need to know about yourself. I’ll tell you what you care about, what you value. I’ll tell you everything you need to know.â€ And because we build an environment that is a reflection of who we are, not who we want to be, not the aspirational values, but who we actually are. That’s what it is. That’s what is going to reveal you.
And so when I think about the environment I think about this relationship so I want to know for me it’s vitally important to have a symbiotic relationship with everybody and in my interaction with you I’m here to serve today and I want to serve you but I also know there’s a symbiosis to this that I hope that we both come out of it better and that others benefit from it. And so if I’m going to have a relationship with the planet that I live on I want it to not be… It can’t be for me. For me it can’t be one of take. It has to be symbiosis. It has to be where both of us gain from it.
So my passion is gardening, people don’t know that about me. I love gardening. I live in a townhouse in a city center. Like literally, my building is a 26-story building. I live in a townhouse and everybody on the [58:30] talked about my garden. People stop and talk about my garden. I have a small garden but I grow herbs and even some veggies but I grow flowers and it’s beautiful and it’s a little bit of my contribution. Yes, I get tons out of it but every day I go out and I do a little bit of a thing in the garden with the watering and the deadheading to have that relationship. So to me environment is relationship. Are you in an abusive relationship with the planet? If you are, consider it from the point of abuse. Do you want to be an abusive person in relationship with Gaia with this female form that we live on? I donâ€™t. So that’s all it is to me. It’s like, â€œAh, okayâ€. And do I screw up? Of course, I do. Just like I do in all my other relationships but that I can catch them. I can do something about them.
Joshua: So when I suggested to youâ€¦ I mean you read the overview of the podcast?
Joshua: And so I invite you to take on a personal challenge. For you that would be improving your relationship with Gaia.
Dov: Yeah, it’s about improving my relationship with Gaia. Improving it means being respectful. Being respectful. So I thought about the challenge because I knew it was coming and the challenge is to drive no more than 100 kilometers because I am in Canada, to drive no more than 100 kilometers in my… We have two cars, my wife’s vehicle which is the Costco vehicle, thatâ€™s what we call it because you can throw **** in the back of it. It’s a small car. It’s actually a very small car that does like 60 to the gallon. So small car is the one we use. But my car is my car because it was my dream car from when I was a kid. Itâ€™s a jet. I love driving my jet.
Joshua: Is it a convertible?
Dov: No, it’s not.
Joshua: Man, some of those beautiful ones from like not a current model, right? The current ones look likeâ€¦
Dov: Itâ€™s a current model, yeah. But itâ€™s an XF but it’s a beautiful vehicle. I love the E type but you know it’s a disaster to driveâ€¦ The E type somebody described, oh madman described the E type as your mistress – you never know the mood it will be in. But no, it’s an XF. It’s a luxury car, it was the car I always dreamed of having. I don’t drive it for anything to do with status, it was just a dream car for me. But when I thought about this I went, â€œOK, whatâ€™s my challenge?â€ And my challenge is that I will not drive it more than 100 kilometers in a month.
Joshua: All right. And that’s going to be a big challenge because I hear the passion for this car. Like it’sâ€¦
Dov: But I’m not a car guy and [60:56] about vehicles andâ€¦ Like I donâ€™t care. Because I donâ€™t care about status or any of those things. But this is something I enjoy driving but I know it’s kind of bitchy towards Gaia. So yeah. Is it pleasurable to me? Yes. But if something is pleasurable to me but abusive to another, that’s not pleasurable to me.
Joshua: That’s living by values. Yeah, it’s examiningâ€¦I have a value but there is another value thatâ€™s a higher value. I really look forward to how this turns out. I ask myself if those 100 kilometers willâ€¦ If you’ll have more joy, more when you get out of the relationship with car with it the small amount or that you would have gotten had you driven ten times that amount. I’m curious. Only time will tell.
Dov: And that is part of my presupposition for this. A lot of familiarity says that we tend to take things for granted the more familiar we are with them. So maybe I’ll appreciate it even more.
Joshua: So I’m now looking at my calendar. Do you want to do this… You said per month. Do you want to do that for one month? Or do you want to do it for longer? I want to schedule the next time that we follow up.
Dov: Sure. We can schedule whenever you like. I’m going to take this on for a month and then Iâ€™ll see what happens at the end of that month. For me setting a goal like this is what I always called the test phase. I’ve done this with all kinds of personal disciplines in my life. There’s a test phase. So there was a test phase where I started eating in a certain way and then I went, â€œWhy the hell would I not eat this way?â€ And now this is how I eat. So by giving myself a test phase, there’s also that part of my brain that goes a little bit like I can start and go back to the old way but very often it changes the behavior. So there’s going to be a month for sure and then may be much longer.
Joshua: Then let’s do it in one month. We might have a third one after that.
Joshua: So I’m looking atâ€¦It says August 18th, I’m looking at September 19th, September 20th, September 21st.
Dov: OK let’s have a look. So September 22nd is a Friday for us. I can do it then.
Joshua: OK, I have a couple of things booked butâ€¦
Dov: You tell me what works. That days I’ve actually got quite a bit of flexibility that day.
Joshua: Isn’t 9:00 a.m. Eastern too early for you?
Dov: No, 9:00 a.m. Eastern isâ€¦
Joshua: I can do 10 or 11 also if that’s better.
Dov: Yeah, let’s doâ€¦ If you give me 11 that’s 8 a.m. for me.
Joshua: OK. So I will send you a calendar invitation after we finish.
Dov: Absolutely. So Dov on Joshuaâ€™s show on the 22nd. We are on for that moment. We are on. And I look forward to it.
Joshua: Me too and running through my head of like what the possibilities are that I think are going to happen but it’s really the discovery that I think is more interesting. And actually can I ask you a favor? Can you email me the [63:32] read out?
Dov: That’s cool.
Joshua: Yeah, I’m kind of curious.
Dov: I will go [63:35] and I’ll send it to you.
Joshua: I wonder if you are going to come back and be like, â€œYeah, I just sat in the car in my garage for a little bit just to sit in there.â€ Feeling engineeringâ€¦
Dov: Get my jet fixed.
Joshua: Yeah. Anything else to cover before you wrap up?
Dov: No, I mean unless you’ve got something you want to ask me and I’m certainly fine with anything you want to ask me. As you know I’m kind of a no holds bad guy I suppose itâ€™s shown.
Joshua: I would take up because I am curiousâ€¦ I didn’t hear a specific advice that I could do with you know with me taking on this identity I’m putting out to the world. Because when I first said it I was like, â€œWho do you think you are?â€ And I thought everyone else would be that way. But no one else has been that way. It’s like I feel like I’ve got a new suit that I’m not comfortable in yet.
Dov: So let me give you something right now in thisâ€¦Because I said what does it mean to you – that’s the first step. And I would put that to anybody. So I want you think about what you want to be in the world and then ask yourself â€œWhat does that mean to me?â€ And by the way whatever answer you getâ€¦So the first answer isâ€¦What do we got, Joshua, for the first answer?
Joshua: Itâ€™s sharing these joys, sharing that like to what nature brings to you. It’s about empathy and compassion and other people and it’s coming from the sleepwalking.
Dov: Right. So then you ask â€œWhy does that matter?â€ Why does that matter? Why does that matter? So you do 5 whys. So 5 whys. So here’s what it means. Why does that matter? Why does that matter? Why does that matter? Why does that matter? Deep down. Find the depth of it. That will help you to find your fire about what it is.
Then ask yourself this question â€œWhat is it that could make me give this up? What is it that could challenge me so hard that it would make me give it up?
Joshua: It’s silent now because I’m holding this down. Not that it’s not being recorded anyway.
Dov: So what is it?
Joshua: So five whys and then what is it that could make me give it up. And I’m going to do these… You didn’t say what medium but I’ll do this as written.
Dov: Yep. So write down, dig into them, get a bit deeper on them and then ask yourself this: If I did this, and so in your case if I was the Gandhi of the environment and they would never know my name, they being the world, what would be the one change that would be my legacy?
Joshua: What one change would be my legacy? You mean how do I do things if they didn’t know my name? Not what one change I do as a result of them not knowing me. You mean the effect that I had on the world exactly what would it be even though people didn’t know it was me.
Dov: So even though nobody knew it was you. So if nobody ever knew your name but you had left the legacy of this one change, what would be that one change?
Joshua: Okay. So I want to set that one but I’m going to do those three things and see where that takes me and to have to have that experience first.
Joshua: Alright. I’m going to close on that and people can look at my blog to see what I’ve come up with because I’ll write this stuff and post it. Dov, thank you very much.
Dov: Itâ€™s been pleasure.
Joshua: I don’t know what to say. Actually one thing because we opened, just that raw opening normally in podcast you stop recording and you talk a little bit but I want to give everyone who’s listening everything. So when we hang up it will actually be hanging up. We may email in between but the next time I’ll talk to you is going to be in just slightly over a month and I get to hear about the 100 kilometers or less.
Dov: Absolutely, absolutely. And I’m looking forward to. And you know I say the same to you as I say to everybody else which is if you want to continue this for yourself and look at how to get deeper with this you know like you you’re saying about you this could be very useful to you, feel free to reach out to me. Same offer as I made [67:07] feel free to reach out to me, we can work out how we can work together and really get that place because obviously you’re on fire with this and I think it’s important. I really do. I believe it’s important. I want to say this to you and to everybody who has a finishing is this:
You do not get your dreams by mistake. They are your heart and your soul crying out for fulfillment, they are your heart and soul crying out to be fulfilled, they are not fantasies. You want to dismiss them, they are not by accident. Itâ€™s your heart and soul crying out for those things to be fulfilled. If that matters to you not as an aspirational value but as a real value, then reach out to me. Let’s do some work together which transforms you.
Joshua: I am going to leave it with that, I can’t say I can’t add to that and so just once again thank you and I will talk to you again in a month.
Dov: Thank you my friend. Itâ€™s an honor. Cheers.
He felt great. He savored the opportunity. He’s glad that he did it. It improved his life. This is not what most people expect when they think about doing something for the environment. Earlier guests had to struggle to get through things, he enjoys process. It was a challenge but he had a greater realization of the value of something and acting on it, especially freedom. His consideration of getting rid of a car took this podcast from me to a new level. I’m releasing it before other conversations I recorded after because earlier guests they do things like getting mugs instead of disposable coffee cups or not eating meat for a little while. These are great challenges to start off with. Getting rid of a car is a pretty serious consideration. It told me that this podcast has the potential to change things on a significantly bigger scale than I thought it before. And for that I owe Dov a big debt of gratitude because now I’m seeing that potential for serious change.
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