—Systemic change begins with personal change—

016: Daniel Gefen, Conversation 1, Vulnerability and Openness


Not often when two men chat on the internet do tears well up and they get choked up. I loved this conversation for its being unscripted and unguarded. Daniel allowed himself to be vulnerable. He asked about posting this interview on his podcast because of the rawness of the emotion that came up. We laughed a lot too. My mistake I recorded this conversation early and I dropped the ball on leading Daniel. If you listen to this podcast in part to learn to lead, when we reach talking about the environment, you'll hear me make big mistakes that provoked resistance. I led him to do the opposite of committing to a personal challenge---he lectured me on what I should and shouldn't do. Someone you're trying to influence lecturing at you means you didn't lead effectively. See if you can listen to where and how I lost him. Learn from my mistake. Notice how I lead others differently. For example, listen to my interview with John Lee Dumas to hear how I led someone who said he didn't care about the environment to identify something he cared about, create a big task to act on that care, and to commit to it with public accountability. Read the full transcript.

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