We spend most of our time talking about Frances's latest book, Daring Democracy. I couldn't help sharing how, decades after reading Diet for a Small Planet, I realized it was the first source that started me on the path to embracing and loving sustainability. I started by describing that path and my gratitude. If you haven't read the book, if you wonder why I'm so impassioned and feel so much joy where others are bogged down in shame, guilt, helplessness, facts, burden, and such, I recommend reading Diet for a Small Planet's fiftieth anniversary edition. You will connect deliciousness with sustainability, and fun, freedom, community, and other rewarding emotions. Regular listeners will also understand my origins better. Then we speak about democracy, especially in the US, and restoring it. We talk about Milton Friedman, the Kochs, Donald Trump, their peers, and their motivations; polarization; what to do about our situation. Underlying the facts, economics, and history are her optimism based in knowledge and history. She promotes accountability, especially of concentrated power. We look from a systemic perspective. We laughed a lot. If you consider sustainability a burden, I think you'll find this episode refreshing. And delicious. We can't change the past, but we can improve our world, which we're doing.