In this podcast I don’t share easy success stories. Even among accomplished leadership gurus, behind the edited books and media profiles, they’re human. Personally, I think we can learn more from them behind the glossy profiles than just from the glossy profiles, however produced and edited. We had fun after meeting at the Union Square Farmers Market which we met in the rain which turned into bright sun. It was hot and humid when we were recording but we were swimming in what we got there – tomatoes, cherry tomatoes, zucchini, basil, collards, chard, and I just made a batch of my famous no packaging vegetable stew with great northern beans that we are about to eat. I read that she loved the experience which wasn’t new to her as it had been to me that is the shopping for vegetables because she’d done a CSA when she was up in Boston as she describes. But the big thing is that she took on that challenge last time and wasn’t able to get through it nearly as much as she wanted to. So we’re going to hear about a challenge and how someone handles not living up to their expectations and what they do about it. Spoiler alert: she doesn’t give up.
Joshua: Welcome to the Leadership and the Environment podcast. This is Joshua Spodek. I’m here with Alisa Cohn. How are you doing?
Alisa: Hi, Josh. I’m fantastic.
Joshua: Listeners can’t hear the smile that was on your face. And so I want to talk to you about your challenge because a lot of people are listening and they just heard the other one. They don’t know that months have passed since we recorded the first conversation. But we just went to the Union Square Farmers Market and let’s talk about that experience because… OK, I think I don’t have to ask a question because it looks like you have stuff to say.
Alisa: Well, first I want to say I’m sitting here in your minimalistic apartment which is super fun. We’ve already explored the intricacies of your kettlebell collection which we share a passion for kettlebells. So I first wanted to say that. Second of all, I want to say it was raining today, pouring rain here in New York City and I was all like, “Oh, my hair. I don’t want to go to the Union Square Farmers Market.” And Josh so beautifully and elegantly didn’t force me to go, didn’t push me to go but continued to offer the opportunity for me to go as in, “I’m going to go. But we can meet later if you like.” And then you were so nice about…I was like, “OK, I’m going to come but I am going to be late.” And you were so nice about that. So in the end, I wondered if it stopped raining which it did. My hair looks fantastic still. Thank you. And we had a great time at the Farmers Market and I got a ton of produce and tomatoes which is tomato season.
Joshua: And when you say a ton of produce, are you going to carry that stuff home?
Alisa: It’s a good question. It’s a good question.
Joshua: Because when we got there I said to her what I say to everyone which is, “I don’t have it in me anymore. I go to the Farmers Market and say to myself, “I’m just going to get one thing. And whatever containers I have with me completely full when I leave.” And you had no idea how much you were getting.
Alisa: Right. I thought I was just going to get some tomatoes. It was filling up. And then I think also just to say you’re very chivalrous and you put all my produce in your bag, your satchel.
Joshua: Yes, I carried a lot.
Alisa: So I didn’t realize how much I was getting and now here I am at your apartment like, “Oh, God, how am I going to bring it all home?” So it was a big adventure. Let’s put it that way.
Joshua: Yeah. And I know that all will be forgiven when you’re eating this stuff because I think it’s going to be more delicious.
Alisa: Yes. It’s fantastic. Yes, exactly. So that was a very good experience especially as it relates to my challenge which has to do with Farmers Market.
Joshua: What a brilliant segue. So when we spoke before the challenge was that…Now you live in the Upper West Side.
Alisa: I do.
Joshua: And I believe that the Union Farmers Market is like the big one.
Alisa: It’s the big one. Yeah.
Joshua: And there are ones out there, right?
Alisa: Yes, there are, right by Lincoln Center on Saturdays and then up a little bit further uptown on Columbus on Sundays. It’s not like I don’t know where and when are the Farmers Markets.
Joshua: So I’m actually curious now. So compared to what we were just visiting. What are those, half the size or quarter the size?
Alisa: No. Yeah. Quarter of the size.
Joshua: So it’s small.
Alisa: Yeah, the one in Lincoln Center I would say is maybe literally a sixth or an eighth of the size.
Joshua: So it is filling up that whole area between…
Alisa: Not really.
Joshua: So when they’d have the ballroom dancing nights that gets filled but the vegetables don’t fill it.
Alisa: Well, they don’t do it. They do it across the street.
Joshua: And so how far of a walk is it from your place to those places?
Alisa: It is a 10-minute walk to Lincoln Center and it’s probably a 15 to 20-minute walk the one further uptown Sixth Street.
Joshua: So now I’m curious. Can you walk us through what happened? How did it go?
Alisa: Yes. Thank you. So you and I spoke in April as you may remember. And I want to say that on April 29 I was running and I fractured my foot. I know! It was terrible. I pounded my foot in the wrong side of my foot as I was running and I was in a kind of a walking boot for about eight weeks. And then after that yeah, when I was walking around I really wasn’t supposed to walk on it for maybe up to 10 weeks. So just to say that impeded a lot of my activities including walking to the farmers market. That’s number one. Number two, the answer is that the first time I went to a farmers market all summer was, wait for it, today with you at Union Square. And I just want to say that I thought that was really interesting because I made the commitment to you that was going to go to the farmers’ markets more often. And I immediately did not that. And so I was thinking to myself it’s so interesting that I’ve made that commitment and what’s my relationship to commitment as in was that really a goal, was it something I was really committed to doing. Because the honest answer is I was not committed to doing it and I was thinking to myself, “How often do you think you’re making a commitment and you pretend to make a commitment? And are you not really making a commitment?”
So we’ve been gearing up for this podcast as the days have gone by, I have been exploring that inside of myself and just recognizing that there are… Even though I’m really much better and I really worked a lot on around setting goals and achieving them and being serious with the goals and milestones that I stand for in life, exactly, and certainly with other people there are still little corners of my experience which I am just not committed to. Or that I’ll say yes but I mean no.
Joshua: Now, one of the things that I say…I think I said this to you not too long ago today is that what is not a goal of this podcast is to present something like, “All you have to do us this thing. It’s really easy. Anyone can do it.” Because I want people to experience what things are for people and when I bring leaders on and you qualify you are…There are several objective world renown resources have put you as like a top leader in the world. You have to be polite and anyone other than you would be like, “Yes, of course!” and you are being very humble. But like the record show that it’s out there.
Alisa: Thank you for saying that.
Joshua: And so people at home they get to hear something like…This is the non-edited version just like… It’s not like if you wrote a book about this experience, you’d cut this part out and say, “This is how to do it.” But I think it’s valuable for people to hear these people who are like top in the field gurus and stuff like that they’re also human and that’s what I’m bringing to people. And first I thank you because there are some people who are like, “This didn’t go. I said it would, it didn’t. I cannot share this. Keep this hidden because that’s not my persona. I’m embarrassed.” And something like that. And however you feel, you’re here and you’re sharing.
And so people at home can say, “Oh, it’s not this easy thing and I’m a failure for not doing it.” The people who are really good at the stuff, it’s a challenge for everyone. And I certainly don’t share enough. It’s only recently that I started realizing how little I’ve shared about the process. You know I say I decided to avoid food packaging and then I say six months later I started. These six months in between, it was written with guilt and helplessness and feeling awful. And I talk about after the switch how awesome it is but I haven’t talked about how… I’ve started to share about the feelings that I don’t really like and I think people connect with that more. I think it’s actually more valuable for people to hear that. Well, not more but just as valuable.
Alisa: Well, this is valuable and I hear you and I appreciate you sharing that and I think you’re absolutely right about the sort of difficult emotions that come with you know it being hard or you’re not doing it right or whatever and I think we all have that. But I guess I also want to say that yes, I am a human. And all of us no matter how well renown or whatever are humans. And I think all of us have to be in touch with, I really believe in this, to be in touch with your humanity. And I think that one of my most valuable I think experiences as a coach is that I walk my talk and what that means is I have trouble and I fall down just like everybody else and I’m really committed to getting back up when I fall down. But part of it has to do [unintelligible] a commitment and setting a goal and achieving it. Do I really mean yes or am I saying yes or no? One thing that I have totally transformed on that I really say yes and I mean yes is just telling my truth and telling the truth for me. And it’s not always pretty. And also, I’ve been reading a lot and listening to a lot of podcasts about people who are quite successful who are clear that it takes work and it doesn’t always go as planned. And that like I think for me my takeaway on that is that the key to life is try, try again. And I really mean that sincerely. You can see on my face that I am sincere.
Joshua: So you want to try again?
Alisa: Yes. I want to try again. And I’m also asking myself what if we could just wind back to what was the epicenter of the challenge. Like what was the genesis of the challenge. Was it about being more healthy?
Joshua: The listeners who just listened to you say it like an hour ago are like, “Don’t you remember?”
Alisa: Don’t you remember? I don’t.
Joshua: I remember.
Alisa: I remember either.
Joshua: And probably because you know one of my big points on this is I refuse to tell people what to do.
Alisa: Right. It’s not your challenge, it’s my challenge.
Joshua: Yeah. And on top of that I refuse to be for my reasons. And so other reasons, I love hearing other people’s reasons but it hasn’t been the case that their reasons have become mine. I have my own reasons. When you think about the environment what do you think about?
Alisa: I think what it was supporting local farmers and sort of spending my money to support local farmers probably and to some extent being healthier for the planet and choosing more organic. And I definitely tend to choose more organic when I go to the farmers market and that’s probably what it was about. And I still feel committed to putting my money where my mouth is. And I still feel committed to local farmers. We talked earlier about the CSA. You know when I was in Boston, when I lived in Boston I was a member of the CSA and I loved it and it felt so good to give your money to a farmer before the season and to have the farmer use your money and then to reap the benefit of that. Or sadly you know pay the penalty for that when it wasn’t a good season. I really felt like connected to the community. And there’s a small I think when you’re using your money and going to the farmers market I think you’re supporting that kind of experience and that ethos. So I think that’s part of it. So do I want to go to a farmers market? Yes. Will I have the opportunity? I’m not sure. Between now and then because I’m going to be away a lot this summer. But I think the other thing comes up for me is what we did today which is that you brought your own bags and my commitment that I really want to make is yes, I will go to the farmers market at least once or twice between now and whatever the end of the summer is. And more importantly I’ll bring my own bags.
Joshua: OK. So I’m still curious about when you support local farms, I heard you say there’s a joy in keeping the money in the community. I see a lot of benefit to the farmers. So what difference does it make to you if you support farmers? I mean you can get food without going to them? Is the food better or is it the connection with the community?
Alisa: Well, it goes without saying that like the food at the farmers market is delicious and amazing. And so that is better so there’s a benefit to me. It’s less convenient and so am I willing to pay for that. Am I willing to sort of handle my time on the convenience or take the extra time? Maybe. And also, it’s a fun experience. But what I really feet passionate about for… Again, it is great to get those tomatoes, it’s beautiful. But what I really feel passionate about is I don’t like the big box of vacation of our country. I don’t like the big box of vacation of New York City. I really like a kind of local flavor and local context and local idiosyncrasy. I really appreciate that these… I think that these farmers, these local farmers are probably like you know in danger of being extinct. I think it makes our lives much better to have them. And I want to use my money to support them. Those are the things that I really feel principled about.
Joshua: One of the things this makes me think of…Do you know how they feed children in school in France?
Joshua: It would be considered gourmet meals here. It’s all local stuff. The point is not that it’s local, it’s like fresh vegetables, fresh fruits you know there is going to be French cheeses and the like because France is probably like local wines for the kids. And they’re on the face of…They’re kind of overdoing it there. They’re like if you have X amount of money for education you know is that the best way to spend it? And then I am look back and thinking, first of all, what is more important than the health of our children? I mean it’s really tough to find things more important than the health of our children. And when I was a kid in school one day I remember my friend came and he said, “I saw them loading up boxes into the cafeteria. It said “grade D, edible.” That’s what it said. Why are kids unable to pay attention in class?
There’s so many things that I can’t really go into but if I forced to I could talk about how… To me it seems like yes, serve kids food that is the freshest, most amazing stuff that you can make and have them grow up with that. When I was in France every time I met a French person at their home and they threw together a salad. It was delicious. I mean way beyond anything I taste here and it was just joining together maybe because they grew up that way.
Alisa: Yeah, with a certain aesthetic.
Joshua: It’s not unusual for them. And that’s what I thought of when you’re talking about local farms and…
Alisa: That’s so funny.
Joshua: That’s normal there.
Alisa: And yeah, and here it’s unusual. Absolutely. Yes. And not only that I mean not to get too carried away on this topic but even your point about the school lunch. I guess I would just say that there are things that we do that they don’t have to be that way. So they’ve made airports increasingly quite lovely and comfortable and even cozy with a lot of electrical outlets and communes for people. I mean the San Francisco Airport is wonderful and we still have these airports that are just industrial and yucky and ugly and not convenient. And I just ask myself, I point to the San Francisco Airport and I’m like you know it could be better. And the same is true with the so-called institutional food. You know it’s like why do we even have school lunches which are not wonderful? I mean I’m not sure what to say to the Grade D you know edible situation but if you just applied a little bit of know-how and a little bit of reflection, you could make lunches even at institutional level at scale quite attractive and lovely and delicious. And to me that’s more of a point of view around excellence and beauty and wonderfulness much more than I mean yes, maybe the kids will benefit more from that but maybe they will pay attention more. I think that’s probably true but I think they also experience what excellence looks like in a variety of different ways and that’s important. I think that’s important for its own sake.
Joshua: You are making me think of a guy who’s going to be on my podcast soon, Tony Hillery. I’m going to send you links. He is in [unintelligible]. And he started with spare time, he started volunteering at some school in Harlem. And kids loved him. He was just supporting kids. Across the street from the school was an empty lot. And he got permission from the city and turned it into Harlem Grown which is he calls it an urban farm. It’s like a garden and the kids from school come across the street and they all grow kale hard and grow lots of different things.
Alisa: That’s so great.
Joshua: And he says, “We plant seeds and we grow healthy children.”
Alisa: Oh, it’s beautiful.
Joshua: Yeah and he like the UN just sent a whole delegation to go check it out. They are binging him out to Silicon Valley. This is just what I heard because I overheard when I was talking to him. And they because they’re like, “We do innovation but when we think innovation all we think of is technology and you’re definitely innovating but the technology is like planting seeds. That’s not technology.” So they want to learn from him. And so many people want to lead and they think like, “I can’t work on this environment stuff. I’m got to get ahead.” And their getting ahead is following, complying and doing what the system wants them to do, to speak a little too glibly but I hope everyone knows what I mean. I could say that more nuanced and please if you’re misunderstanding this, there’s a nuance there of like Tabata system and so forth.
But he chose to do something that he cared about. And now he’s a nationally known figure. And I’m hearing in you I think getting food is one thing but you know my sister volunteers at the farmers market that we were and she lives in Queens so she volunteers with the one there and she leads tours and she brings groups around so that they learn what to get there. And then she does it here. She wasn’t there today. And then Tony does the stuff with his farm and it’s north of Central Park and something like within one mile, 60 fast food joints zero places to get what they have there.
Alisa: Yes. That area is very short on healthy food.
Joshua: And I’m hearing that something like you might want to do stuff like that.
Alisa: Yeah. I mean I think that’s beautiful. I just want to add something. You know it’s interesting like there’s so much of what you just said that the notion of following your curiosity and making white space in your life to follow your curiosity sounds like kind of happened to him. But we can all find ways to make white space in our lives to then follow our curiosity. And that’s great. And the second thing I’m hearing you say is what he actually did was he cared for the kids and then brought them to the urban garden or whatever you call…
Joshua: First to say, he had never planted anything before that.
Alisa: Yeah, but I just want to say that I am constantly… When I think a lot about you know I had endless free time and if I had a lot of resources when I had this commitment and passion about is taking kids and helping them build the skills of collaboration and leadership at that age. There’s a lot of ways to do that. One is like theater and I am on the board of this organization that supports children’s theater and schools in New York which otherwise wouldn’t have theater. Also, music. Also, there’s a lot of the movies about chess play you know sort of the teacher who… The one with the teacher who had them learn like took an inner-city school and formed a chess team and they became the champions. I can’t remember the name of the movie but anyway, the point is that every time you get kids to work together around common purpose and having to work together and building something together and making mistakes and recover from the mistakes and having dynamics together and not liking each other and having to make up and having to work together and then building something like in this case a garden is exactly it because you plant the kale and the little shoots of kale come up and then over time you have kale and they have to all work together and plan.
And also about that is like the law of the farm, literally the law of the farm which is you have to understand that you’ve got to first plant the seeds and you’ve got to nurse the ground and you’ve got to water it and then over time it becomes really tiny and then over time it actually grows into something worth eating and that you cannot rush that process. All of that is valuable for kids. And if we were teaching our kids, [unintelligible] kids that, the world in their adulthood would be completely different.
Joshua: That’s what he’s doing.
Alisa: I love it. It’s awesome.
Joshua: I am going to add a little bit to that because when… He tells it, some of the kids like the chard group and they brought the chard home and they loved it because they grew all the stuff you talked about.
Alisa: Of course. So they grew it themselves.
Joshua: So the next day he says, “How was the chard?” And they say, “My mum threw it out.” Because I think a grandparent would know but you know there’s a generation that just doesn’t know how to do anything. You know it’s a two-way thing why there’s only fast food there. Stores will sell what people buy. So if they’re not buying it, and so you know we’ve lost the skills. So one of the reasons why I could have interviewed Tony up there because I was up there a couple of times and I’ve asked him to come down here because I want to make him some stew because I want to work with them and I do let the record show that there’s my window sill garden over there and it’s green.
Alisa: Yes, and it’s green, it’s fantastic.
Joshua: And I could probably help them with planting stuff but not really. But with the cooking I can help a bit because this stuff, the ingredients to this could come from the garden but the stuff that didn’t come from the garden – the legumes…You only have the nutritional [unintelligible]. And usually the sweet potatoes, or the carrots or the beats, most of those like the legumes can be shipped to your door and then they can be on your shelf for a year. I don’t know how long beans can stand on your shelf dried.
Alisa: Long time.
Joshua: Long time. And sweet potatoes maybe not as long as the dried beans but definitely long time. And then the fresh vegetables that’s all you have to get which they provide. And so I want to do… I haven’t told you about my idea for restaurant which I’m not actually going to do but to have a restaurant with unique fresh vegetable no packaging stews and it’s really easy to make and I want to pitch to him, not to pitch, but hear his thoughts on making my restaurant and now I can help them with entrepreneurship and leadership which I think I can add more value to.
Alisa: That’s great. I love that.
Joshua: And it will be placed within his, within a mile of there that has fresh cooked vegetables Harlem Grown.
Alisa: Totally. [unintelligible] Artisanal. Very local.
Joshua: Artisanal although I don’t see myself as a hipster.
Alisa: Well, here you go.
Joshua: Well, I’m going to take myself as helping… I want to pitch to him because he’s doing such an amazing thing that I want to help with that. And when you talked about going to buy food I heard that would be something to keep it in the community and so forth. But I’m hearing something else that maybe it’s like the next step afterward because it’s more commitment to do something bigger like that. But I couldn’t help myself. I recommend going to Harlem Grown and check it out.
Alisa: Ok. I want to come with you.
Alisa: OK. We will do it together.
Joshua: Although the next time he is coming down here.
Alisa: All right. I am sure I’ll find time.
Joshua: So I try to avoid doing this but let’s make that part of the commitment if that’s not putting into you… You said it first that you’ll do it. I’m giving you… Just visiting Harlem Grown and meeting Tony.
Alisa: Yes, I would love to. Is Tony there on Saturday ever?
Joshua: I have no idea.
Alisa: Before I make that commitment, I got to check with him because I…
Joshua: We’ll just go to Harlem Grown some time.
Alisa: OK, that would be great. Right. Without making a big commitment.
Alisa: Yes. I’d love to do that.
Joshua: So are you up for a third conversation?
Alisa: Right after we go to Harlem Grown?
Joshua: Well, I mean also for you to go to the farmers markets because I think if I remember right by the end of the summer you’re going to go at least once to the farmers market.
Alisa: At least once or twice more and I’m going to bring my own bags.
Joshua: OK. And so I’d love to bring people to a third conversation of… We could leave it at, “I didn’t go at all except I did just you know an hour maybe two hours ago.” We could leave it at that but you did say try-try again. And you do sound like you’re going to try-try again. And I’d to bring you a third time and see how it goes after you go to a farmers market on your own.
Alisa: I love the way you ask. Sure, I will. Yes, let’s do that. I rather have a third conversation after we go to Harlem Grown. But that might be, just being honest, that might take a little time to organize including next season. I’m thinking about my calendar for August and September. I’m just being mindful and serious about my commitments. I’d love to go to Harlem Grown with you and it might literally be in 2019.
Joshua: OK. And it’s right on the corner for me because it’s above 14th street and that’s the same neighborhood.
Alisa: Exactly. For you non-New Yorkers. [unintelligible]
Joshua: Upstate. Let’s see. We’ll talk again another time, possibly, 2019, 2020, 2030.
Alisa: Sure. Could be anytime.
Joshua: And after Harlem Grown it’s turned into like this giant farm like you’re like, “Oh…
Alisa: I was early on in Harlem Grown.
Joshua: I want to close with a couple of questions. One is is there anything I didn’t think to ask that’s worth bringing up? And the other is there any message you want to give direct to the listeners? You can combine one or two [unintelligible] questions.
Alisa: I’m just going to take the second question. [unintelligible] really that you didn’t ask. I am not worried about what you didn’t ask but I do have a message. My message is always no kidding, try-try again. And also, for everybody that the way to try-try again is to really think about, just step back and think about what you actually want, I guess what’s your real purpose and how are you going to adjust what you already did to try-try again. And are you going to try harder or different? Are you going to involve more people? And I really want to say that what I know to be true is that a lot of people think about anybody that they point to as a role model, “Oh, it was easy for him or it’s easy for her.” And I think that those of us who have really focused on achieving a certain kind of thing in the world it’s not easy, it’s not easy.
Joshua: So it looks easy often from outside.
Alisa: It looks easy from the outside I think like definitely an overnight success is 10 years in the making and I just want to encourage everybody that nobody is born special. Everybody is born with capacity. And it’s really awesome and beautiful to look and see what your capacity is and to try to do things that are out of your comfort zone that make you uncomfortable and make you nervous and to have commitments around try-trying again. That to me is the theme for today.
Joshua: Is that way we’ve been laughing so much this afternoon? Even though I’m like getting you to do, I’m like involving you having to do things. I can’t help but ask this question. You said to take a step back and think of what do I really want. I think for a lot of people taking a step back and they say what do I really want, it’s really hard to answer that.
Alisa: It’s really hard to answer that.
Joshua: So you faced that in yourself, probably in your clients a lot. Could you go a little bit more into that as how can they figure out what they want?
Alisa: Yeah. I’ll give you an exercise. Here’s the exercise. So commit to doing some morning writing. So every morning, every morning for two weeks or so maybe three, maybe one but every morning for a period of time. Like the notion of like a daily practice.
Alisa: Yes. SIDCHA. A daily practice. Write down on a piece of paper or open a new document on your computer and write down “my best possible life three years in the future” column and then write down the date three years in the future. The date is 2021.
Alisa: Yeah. August 4, 2021 and then write down your age on that day. OK. And then just start writing and think about the areas of your life that you’d like to explore. Think about your career. Think about your finances. Think about your romantic life. Think about your health, your emotional well-being, if you have children. Think about every aspect of your life and then just start writing and then do the same thing tomorrow. And here’s what’s important: don’t cut and paste from yesterday. Don’t cut and paste anything from yesterday.
Joshua: The point is the writing.
Alisa: The point is the writing. Exactly. And generate that every day from scratch and common themes will emerge and you’ll begin to get a sense of direction of your own North Star.
Joshua: All right. Well, I’m glad I asked you. I feel like there might be a page on your website where this is available.
Alisa: No, but do you think I should put one on? Maybe I will.
Joshua: I think so.
Alisa: Okay. I will. Good idea. I’ll make it downloadable.
Joshua: Yes. And then everyone will go and they’ll be like, “Alisa gives me this great advice and this is a great place to go to.” I’ll put the links up but can say how can people find out more about you and where can they learn…
Alisa: Thank you. So you can follow me on Twitter @AlisaCohn. I’m going to spell my name A L I S A C O H N @AlisaCohn, or my website www.alisacohn.com. No E’s in any of my names. And you can say hi to me there and I’d love to hear from everybody and I will put that downloadable best possible with activity.
Joshua: Well, Alisa, thank you very much. Thank you for coming over. It’s funny you braved the rain and now it’s sunny.
Alisa: It’s a beautiful sunny day out. Thank you, Josh, for your encouragement always and for your role-modelship in your life.
Joshua: So what she said was, “It’s raining out, should we still do this?” and I wrote back, I think I said, “I want to be there anyway so if you want to meet later, we meet later.” And she was like, “I am going to be there.”
Alisa: Yes, thank you for that.
Joshua: Anytime and thank you very much.
Some guests opt not to take on a challenge at all. Some of them they act because they know that the second conversation is going to hold them accountable. And I know a lot of listeners hold back from looking at their values and acting on them because they know the transition is going to be a challenge. Alisa shares how it works for even accomplished practiced leadership coaches. She allows herself to be vulnerable in public. That’s very hard. But it’s important to note that it doesn’t end here. Leadership work never ends which is part of its challenge when you’re just starting but also it’s great joy when you master it. We’ll see you again for a third conversation. So we’ll see you back again then.
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