Education and learning, not just scoring higher on tests, is at the core of my leadership practice. Today I bring a luminary of education work, Julie Wilson. As hyper-educated person who late in life, in my 40s, learned that doing well in school didn't mean success in life, especially in an educational system based on coercion and compliance. I came to see learning social and emotional skills improved my life more and solved our greatest problems. Covid-19 is one of our greatest problems, affecting education more than nearly any other field. Partly it's affecting our brittle, non-resilient educational bureaucracies, which differ from teaching students. It's also affecting learning now and for an unknown time to come. I wanted to talk about self-directed education and we do, but we started with Julie revealing an inside view of an area with as great upheaval and consequence to everyone as any, as well as her personal take. I was blown away at how much the pandemic is affecting education. I knew it was big but hadn't thought it through. Empty buildings, parents not knowing what to do, teachers who are exhausted and burning out, kids unable to play with each other, isolation possibly leading to more testing, at the same time potential for reconstruction, closer families, more love between the adults in children's lives and the children, the adults being their parents more. I haven't begun to consider it. After we stopped recording I said I hope I wasn't too assertive or aggressive about the ship at sea part. I confess I was speaking out of confusion and frustration, most likely revealing my ignorance. She said she valued the prodding. I hope I helped.